Samuel Althaus

This is an interview with Samuel Althaus for the Virginia Holocaust Museum,

Richmond, Virginia. 00:01:00Today is April 3, 2005. We are at the Virginia Holocaust

Museum. The interview is conducted by Inge Horowitz. Videographer, Chuck Weitzenhofer.

Inge: Mr. Althaus, could you please state your full name, your birthdate, and

how old you are.

Mr. Althaus: My birthday? My birthday was in October 26, 1924.

I: So you are now?

A: I was born--

I: You are how old now?

A: I'm now 80 years old.

I: 80.

A: Yes.

I: And--

A: I have lived in Virginia for 56 years.

I: How do you spell your name, for the record?

A: My name is spelled A-l-t-h-a-u-s.

I: Was it always spelled this way?

A: No. It was spelled A-l-t-u-s.

I: And where were you--

A: But during--

I: Yes?

A: When we first arrived, they spelled the name that way; A-l-t-h-a-u-s. And the

reason for me not changing my name, the records would not be coordinated.

I: Right.

A: So I maintained my name, what it is now.

I: I see.

A: But that's not the original name.

I: Um, and where were you born and living, before the--

A: I was born, in a city named Ciechnow [Ciechanow]. C-i-e-c-h-n-o-w, in Poland, on the East

Prussian border. We lived roughly, about 25, 30 miles 00:02:00from the East Prussian border.

I: And near Warsaw?

A: Warsaw was about 65 miles away.

I: In what direction?

A: In the opposite direction. Not--

I: So you lived--

A: Warsaw was more central Poland.

I: I see.

A: Where we lived on the border.

I: I see. I see. And I must ask you what languages you speak.

A: I still speak fluent Yiddish--That's the language I grew up in, speaking at

home. I speak some Polish. I--don't speak it as well because I don't practice

it. I speak German, and English, and--partial Russian. I spoke fluent Russian 00:03:00 50

years ago, 60 years ago, but that hasn't, I don't practice it so, but I do, I

can still communicate with some of 'em.

I: Do you read Hebrew?

A: I read it, but I, I can read, yes. But I--I can't interpret it. I can read it

but not interpret it. Some I can interpret some words I can interpret, but not

all of it.

I: Thank you. Now before you begin telling your story, I think you want to make

a statement. This would be the time.

A: Well, my statement, I'm here, not for my own personal sake, I'm, I'm the sake

of history. In a few short years, there gonna be very few survivors, real

survivors, be alive. And we must record, as much as we can, 00:04:00with accuracy, with

no dramatization, just telling the factual things, what you lived, what you

witnessed, what you felt, what you--really seen in the reality. But let me

elaborate a little bit. I don't think that any of us who are survivors have the

ability to describe really what transpired. So we have to be very strenuous in

describing. It's not not memorized, I've memorized everything, except the

ability to talk about it.

I: Right. Would you please begin by painting a picture of your family, the

members of your family, and, your 00:05:00life, in Ciechanow?

A: We lived a very primitive life. We didn't have any running water. We, the

only thing we had, is electricity. Uh, my parents grew up but they didn't have

electricity either. So, we lived a very strenuous life, but a happy life. We had

strong family values. My father was devoted to Judaism, he practiced his

religion, he--he never pushed us as kids to do everything that he did. But on

Sabbath we went to the synagogue with 00:06:00him, and, a lot of people, asked about

ghettos. In our community, it was not, it wasn't a ghetto, but, the people lived

close enough, within walking distance on Sabbath to go to the synagogue, to all

the Jewish traditional places, where they killed fowls, where they were teaching

the Hebrew language. They had a Hebrew school that you studied after school.

They did not have a school that they were teaching Hebrew and the Polish history

and language.

I: So you attended--

A: You attended public school, and after public school, you automatically went

to the Hebrew school for several 00:07:00 hours.

I: I see. Was Ciechanow a basically Jewish town? Or, what was the percentage of

the population?

A: Percentage of Jews in relation to the Christians was probably--I'm

guessing--maybe 10 percent.

I: 10 percent were Jews?

A: Yes. I'm guessing.

I: And the Jews lived--

A: They lived--

I: In a neighborhood.

A: They lived very close, primarily because of the--

I: The synagogue.

A: Because of the, the rituals--The synagogue, the--everything pertaining to

Jewish life was surrounding in that area.

I: Yes.

A: So some people did live, now my cousin who did not come with me, his father

lived on the outskirts. He didn't live close by. Some people did live, but the

majority 00:08:00lived in a surrounding area of the synagogue because of their beliefs.

I: Right, and your father--

A: Uh--

I: What--

A: My--

I: Go ahead.

A: My father, it was considered a modern man, in that time, but he was

observant. We didn't have any reform, and conservatives, and orthodox, there was

only one, synagogue. That was the orthodox synagogue.

I: I see. Uh, please tell us who were in your family, by name, and who survived.

A: There were, there was my father--

I: What--

A: His name was Harry.

I: Harry?

A: Harry, yeah. Well actually the Hebrew name Shua.

I: Ok.

A: Hirsch. That's a deer.

I: Yes, I see.

A: 00:09:00And, my mother. I-t-a. Ita.

I: Ita.

A: And we were 5 brothers and 2 sisters. I was the youngest of the 5 brothers.

Of the ones that survived, is the third brother, the middle brother of the 5, he

was actually the third one down.

I: So your brothers--

A: Was two brothers removed.

I: The two oldest ones did not survive.

A: The two oldest did not survive, and the one next to me did not survive.

I: So the brother who survived was named--

A: Simon.

I: Simon. And, the brothers who perished were--

A: Was Yossel, Cyrlk, Lye.

I: And you were the 00:10:00 youngest.

A: I was the youngest of the 5 boys.

I: And then you said you had two sisters.

A: Two sisters.

I: They were younger than you.

A: They were younger than me. They did not survive. They were not old enough to

even taken into the camp, they were young. I was 18. And I'm, I'm guessing, I

don't, I'm not, I would say the oldest sister was about 15, and the youngest was

about 13. Twelve.

I: Right.

A: I don't know the details.

I: But they were deported with the whole family.

A: They were taken with my mother.

I: Yes. What happened, uh, when, what was the relationship between the Jewish

and the, I presume mostly Catholic community.

A: Were all Catholic.

I: All 00:11:00 Catholic.

A: I've never known any other church in the name, in the city except Catholic

Church. While the city, in itself, the surrounding city was all agriculture.

Farm, the farms, you literally could walk to the farms. And--

I: And the--

A: There was a brewery in my hometown, there was a, sugar factory in a, in my

hometown, but uh, most of it was agriculture.

I: Agriculture. What was your father's business--

A: Business--

I: Or occupation.

A: My father's business was the whole family business for generation. Live fowl.

I: Fowl.

A: Fowl, yes. Had farms where they used to buy the young geese and feed 'em, and

ship and export 'em to Germany and ship 'em to the bigger 00:12:00cities. We didn't have

any cars but I know we had trucks in the business. I distinctly remember the trucks.

I: And you say this was a family business for--

A: It was a family business.

I: How many generations?

A: I only remember two of my generations but it went beyond that.

I: But your family had--

A: Always lived there for generations.

I: In Ciechanow.

A: Ciechanow, yes.

I: Am I pronouncing it right?

A: Yes.

I: Ok. Uh I have your book, I have read your book, and you ended this chapter,

"--it was a sweet, wonderful existence for all." And that is how you, you felt

about your life.

A: Well, we--I talk to the kids, and a lot of people are impressed with the fact

that we had a very close 00:13:00relation with a different environment.

I: Of--

A: We didn't do things because we had to. We did it because we had the feeling

inside. Try to help our father. Try to help my mother. I mean we took--going,

and fetch the water, probably--I'm guessing--two miles away.

I: Really.

A: Carry--the thing on your shoulder with the two buckets. It was like a,

community well, that everybody who needed water went over there and just, put

the, there was a bucket, you put it down with a chain, filled up the buckets,

and you hung the bucket back up, and you went, and you, nobody charged 00:14:00 nothing

for it, it was just, you had the privilege of going there and use it.

I: I see. Uh, then came, the Nazi occupation. Uh, when was that? That like, you

were born in 19--24--

A: Well actually, the last year, 1939, from the beginning on, life was in disarray.

I: You were then--

A: While the war, yes, while the war was not going on I was 14 years old.

I: 14.

A: The war was not going on, but we knew it's a matter of time, and, mentally,

we talked about that Hitler waited for the harvest to be removed. Had for the

cleared fields, then he will invade. And he did invade, the 00:15:00first of September,

1939. Within a couple of days, the whole area was overrun.

I: So you had, there were signs, there were warnings, because--

A: Nothing.

I: You knew that--

A: We knew it--

I: It's happening--

A: We knew it's gonna happen.

I: You knew it was gonna happen.

A: We--

I: The Jews--

A: There was one radio among a hundred families and we used to gather and listen

to Hitler make his speeches.

I: I see. I see.

A: And they had--it was--it was scared just to listen to him. But we would

listen to him. And we said what he's gonna do, and what, and he did exactly what

he, what he said he's gonna do.

I: I see. So how did the relationship between Jews and Catholics change at that time?

A: Well, we, we 00:16:00had business relations, very little, no social.

I: You never had social relations.

A: No social relation. I describe in the book my mother used to meet her friend,

who she was wealthy, elite, family in town, but they grew up together and they

used to meet, sometime, she would bring, my mother--would borrow money from her,

sometimes, you needed it. And, but I knew they had a very close, only in secretive--

I: Secretive?

A: Not, not openly.

I: I see. This was--

A: They just didn't associate with the Jews.

I: Before the invasion.

A: Before the invasion.

I: Though they had gone to school together, you--

A: No we did not. We had separate schools. The Christians went Monday, Sunday, 00:17:00Monday through Saturday. There was a six-day school.

I: I see.

A: The Jewish kids went Sunday through Friday.

I: So what you call public school was really--only Jewish.

A: Separate.

I: They were separate--

A: Only Jewish kids went to one school, the non-Jewish kids went to the other

one, simply because of the six, I don't know why, they liked it that way--

I: And that kept them separate.

A: We didn't even dreamed of going together to school.

I: So, described what happened then, September 1, 1939, German soldiers invaded

Poland, with air force and--

A: With air force and they were without, the building we were living in, the

apartment building we were living in, was shattered, from the air, from the

German, airplanes. Nobody got hurt, but we 00:18:00knew, the war started.

I: And where did your family live after that when the apartment was shattered?

A: Well we, no one, we, it wasn't destroyed, it was just shattered, it was not

bombs, was just bullets, sprayed with bullets.

I: So you remained there.

A: We remained there. Yes.

I: And--

A: But after the occupation, they moved us from there. We were moved

approximately a half a dozen times, to tighter quarters, all the time. They took

the first apartment right away, they moved us somewhere else, and then

gradually, at night, there were so many families together in one apartment, when

you got up at night you had to be careful not to step on anybody. That was the,

prior to be taken away.

I: Why were they doing this, were they using your apartment house?

A: 00:19:00I don't know why. We never asked why. We never discussed why. We did not have

any rights whatsoever, but the tragic thing about it, gradually the "why" was

tightened, all the time. At first, there was a curfew, you were not supposed to

be seen at night. Nobody's supposed to leave the house.

I: Ok.

A: Then the mayors made us wear the Star of David. Then the rule came in that

Jews were not supposed to walk on the sidewalk. We supposed to walk in the

gutter only. If you, if somebody caught you walking the side you got a 00:20:00 severe

beating. Physical beating was a way of life, in all the time, including the

years of incarceration.

I: Did your father, was he allowed to continue his business?

A: No. Absolutely not.

I: What happened?

A: They--they--all of it was taken away. Immediately. Everything seized. You

didn't go near it--

I: Did you do other work? Did your father? Your brothers?

A: No, nothing. The only work you did was perform when they needed you.

I: And what kind of work was that?

A: In the wintertime we would shovel the snow, clear the roads. Um, sometime,

anything that needed faster work. Picked us up in the morning and bring us back

at night.

I: So you were 15, or 14 at the invasion, were you also taken away for work?

A: Yes. 00:21:00Absolutely. I remember, I remember one, morning, taken to shovel the

snow, and my mother put a roll in my pocket, and when I went to eat it later on

it was solid frozen. I couldn't even eat it. That's so cold.

I: And--uh--you have in your book the story of your uncle, Leibel Altus.

A: The uncle was my cousin's father.

I: Yes, the cousin who survived.

A: The one that lives in Newport News. He was a crane exporter. Very well, one

of the wealthiest men in town. Yes. Now, there is a story about him--they used

to roundup the most 00:22:00harvest for the potatoes to come off the farm. They used to

roundup the Jewish girls, the, the men and the boys performed other work, but

they rounded up hundreds of these kids, young women.

I: The Nazis did this.

A: The Nazis did. And transporting them to the farms, and they lived in the

barns, and whatever they fed 'em, and they were digging the potatoes. Huge farm

of potatoes. Then they have the machinery they used to dig 'em, and the uncle of

mine, he, these farms were not owned anymore by the owners. The owner was there,

he was managing it, but the Germans owned the farm.

I: So he became work--

A: My father, my uncle, 00:23:00knew the previous owner, he was the manager, so he went

from farm to farm, everyday he would leave town and come back at night, and

intervene, so that he, they would treat the girls better, maybe give 'em some

extra food or some special. So he, he didn't have a member of the family on the

farm. But he went there because they had those girls, Jewish girls, and one day

he did not return. It's in the book.

I: Yeah. What happened?

A: They, it was, see for some reason or another, they separate the Nazis from

the rest of the Germans. But, it was not true when they came to carrying out

atrocities. 00:24:00He was not killed by any Nazis, he was killed by the Gendarmes, the

people who were Germans, and guarding the roads and so on. They saw him there

and he wasn't supposed to be there, took him in the woods and shot him.

I: Because he was interfering with the operation.

A: No, because he wasn't, you know, he was Jewish, he was not supposed to do it.

They--I cannot separate the army from the Nazis. All of them carried out atrocities.

I: So Volksdeutsche Germans were coming there to live.

A: To live. And they, we, we used to take, roundup and do work for them in the

houses outside- cleaning, do a lot of things. But, we never as much as stepped

in the house. 00:25:00Just outside.

I: So, your own--

A: They'd bring the work outside for us to do.

I: So they occupied the houses where you used to live.

A: We used to live. Yes.

I: They lived the good life and you were their slave.

A: Right.

I: In effect. In your own town, in your own home. How long did this--

A: This went on for 3 years. It went on from August, from September 1939, until

early November 1942. And what they did, the latter part of October, early

November, is notified, they always had the eldest of the community, always asked

for them to appear before them. They would give 'em 00:26:00instructions, and they told

them to roundup all the Jewish community, all the Jewish people, be at the train

station, and I believe that was, this, there, there, statistically I think they

are the records are straight, I think it was November the 7th. I don't remember

it but I just looked it up, my, the fellow who wrote a book with me, he looked

up everything for statistics--And on the internet he got that, they even had the

numbers, of the, of us. On the internet they have everything recorded.

I: After you went--

A: Yes. So I think it was November the 7th. And the trip lasted uh roughly about

5 days.

I: What were your instructions when you went to the train station? What were you told?

A: At first when I had the, 00:27:00I was 18 years old, I myself, I thought maybe

they're gonna relocate us and let us live somewhere, work somewhere, but, the

older people from me, the more mature people, they were not very happy. There

was one man I think I described in the book, he, used to do, he used to do, the

blacksmith. Did a lot of work for the Germans too. And he had assimilated his

family in the United States and they used to send him a lot of money. And I

stood, watched him, he burned the hundred dollar bills. He said "They're gonna

get me but not they're not gonna get that money." So he was not 00:28:00very optimistic.

I: Had you heard about the concentration camps?

A: Absolutely not. Nobody ever did. The slightest--first of all, we did not live

in Warsaw, we did not live in Lodz, we did not live in Krakow. We lived in a,

small community, relatively small community, and we didn't have any outside

communication, whatsoever.

I: Except this radio, but you didn't have--

A: No we didn't no more radio.

I: You didn't have a radio after--

A: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You didn't, you didn't even hear rumors.

I: So what were your orders, what did--

A: The orders were to be at the train station.

I: Could you bring anything with you?

A: You bring the best belongings. What you can carry. We didn't have the best

belongings with us anymore--They've taken most of it. 00:29:00We did, whatever we took

with us. So we all gathered at the train, and boarded the train, it was very

orderly, surprisingly.

I: And it was a regular train?

A: It was a passenger train.

I: Passenger train.

A: The, there's very isolated, most of them were in freight cars.

I: I know.

A: We were on a passenger train. And it was very orderly.No pushing, no beating,

no nothing. Just boarded the train, the train took off.

I: And your family was together?

A: Together. Yes.

I: You wrote in your book at that time your father was 50, your mother was 48

years old, or, I figured it out, and the children, and as you said the girls

were the youngest. They were like uh, pre-teen, the youngest. And you were on

this train for as you said--

A: Roughly for 4 or 5 days, 00:30:00I think it was about 5 days, and we arrived--

I: Where did you go? Where were you taken?

A: We didn't know where we were. When we arrived, late at night. The train

stopped, and we could see, because of the passenger train, we could see through

the window, this well-lit place, the bright lights. It didn't look good. And

with split seconds, the SS opened the doors, and pushed, got on the train and

pushed everybody out of the, off the train within, literally split seconds, with

the dogs, and then the sorting out started.

I: The sorting.

A: And then were the men, on the left, the women on the right. 00:31:00I would say the

men were from age about maybe 16, 17, to 50. The women the same thing. If they

had a child with them, they were taken away, they didn't take the child from

her. If you were 20 years old, and you held a child, you and the child were

taken. We still didn't know anything about it. The only thing I remember much

myself, going in with this group, and, they took, partial, of us, few people, a

few people at the time, walked them in the building. And the first thing they

did, is cut our hair very short, as short as they could with a machine. The

prisoners did all that. Then--

I: People in prison uniforms?

A: Yes. 00:32:00Then they handed everybody a piece of paper. We didn't even look at the

piece of paper, and they told us to go by, there were tables, like you know the

8 foot tables see here, tables like that, lined up with prisoners behind there,

and they took the piece of paper from your hand, grabbed your left arm,

stretched it, tattooed it, the number was on the paper on your arm.

I: You have it on your arm?

A: I have it on my arm.

I: You never had it removed. And then, and that--

A: And then--

I: Your family--

A: They walked us out to another place--

I: I'll help you. Want me to help you open it? The button? (Referring to his sleeve).

A: I'll unbutton it. Hold on. (Shows tattooed arm).

I: Oh my. 00:33:00It's a very large, and a low number. A relatively low number, what was

your number?

A: 73 thousand, 5-38. And then they walked us out, to a different part, and we

shed out clothes, and they gave us prison clothes. The prison clothes consisted

of a jacket, pair of pants, and a pair of shoes. No underwear, no nothing. No

socks. It was an old, dried up pair of shoes. Then, when you got, you put the

uniform on, with the shoes, you were walked in, and I was walked in on Barrack 9.

I: 00:34:00Did the shoes fit?

A: Didn't make any difference. As long as they were big, too big. Um, I have

scars on back of my foot, from not having socks and Auschwitz; the area Birkenau

had a limey type of soil. You stuck your foot in, you tried to pull it out and

put the right foot in, you pulled your foot but not the shoe, and you kinda

rubbed it against the shoe, and I had sores, on both sides of my feet. And we

walked that day, got into Barrack 9, they had three layers of wood with straw

sacks with a thin blanket, and it was roughly about 00:35:00six feet area that was like

2-by, 4-by-4 thick, and five prisoners shared that area. Most, most of the time,

almost all the time, you never took your clothes off. Only things you took your

shoes off, and you put 'em under your head and, whatever sleep you got, the

following morning roughly about 5, 6 o'clock they banged on your bunks, jump

off, we're all dress already, took our shoes and went outside. You lined up five

deep, and they took inventory of all the prisoners, make sure everybody was

accounted for. Every, every, if the numbers were correct they broke us, they

broke up. 00:36:00If the numbers were not, incorrect, you waited till they counted

everything again. Once you broke up, there were tables there with, green and red

enamel bowls, and they gave you an artificial bowl of tea, that five prisoners,

the five shared.

I: The five who slept on the same bunk.

A: The five you were lined up with, not necessarily slept with, the five you

were lined up, five deep, shared that bowl of tea. And you took a sip or two,

sometime all of them took a sip or two, and then sometime you washed your hands

and face with the rest of the tea. The following, that morning we did, the first

time they did that was on Sunday. The prisoners did not work on Sunday. 00:37:00 That

didn't mean, that you were free to sleep. First order was, you didn't have the

privilege of roaming around the camp. You either worked, or you were in the

straw sack.

I: In the straw--

A: When we broke up and I walked towards the door, the doors were like the doors

you have here, the big door, huge doors, the build, they were horse stables,

these barracks, in Birkenau, and I stood at the door and a gentleman stood

alongside of me, he had a white jacket on, and I looked at his number it was

34,000, I remember.

I: Low.

A: Very, very low. I said, "Sir, 00:38:00what do you do here? I see you're wearing a

white jacket." He said, "I'm a doctor." I said, "Would you please answer me, we

arrived last night. What happened to the people like my mother, my two sisters,

my mother's sisters, my uncles, what happened to all these people?" He pointed

to the left of me, there were trenches with burning smoke, flame, and that

distinct odor of burning flesh. I've never experienced that odor in my life

again. He said, "That's what happened." And he walked away. And I myself went in

to my friends, I don't, I've never had that 00:39:00feeling again. I was subconscious,

and I asked myself, "Where is God?" That's why I named the book Where is God? I

came in back to my senses, I walked into the barrack went in the straw sack--

I: And that's how you learned.

A: That was, that's how I learned what happened. Then you talk to, to the people

on the same barrack, on the same floor, same barrack that you were in over

there--they already knew everything. They did not have the crematorium yet.

I: So they--

A: So they were burning the bodies in the trenches. They put wood in the bodies

and that, you could, you could literally, it was like a hundred feet from you.

I: There were no gas chambers then.

A: The gas chambers were there, yes.

I: So you--

A: I never witnessed the gas chambers. I never, 00:40:00the only crematorium I've ever

seen was after the war, in Dachau, I went with my son to visit Dachau and I did

see 'em, but I didn't see any of that.

I: So you assumed they were first gassed and then--

A: The first following day was Monday, we were assigned to a commander, and we

went to work, and the kind of work we did was building newer camps, all the

time. When I first arrived, there was a women's camp and a men's camp. There was

a, main area, to walk in. They were roughly maybe 50 feet apart, the two, the

two camps. But the, the entrance was not directed to the men's. The entrance was

in, like a corridor and you went to the right to the men's, to the left to the 00:41:00 women's.

I: This was Birkenau.

A: It was Birkenau, yes.

I: Which was part of Auschwitz?

A: I was never in Auschwitz.

I: Ok. So this was like a sub-camp?

A: I would say that, 90% of the atrocities were committed in Birkenau.

I: Yes.

A: And, literally, every, single day, you saw trucks with people going towards

the gas chambers. All day long. The only time it seized a little bit, stopped,

was like about the middle of 44. You didn't see any more, not as much, or very

little. Didn't have anymore left. The only thing, one group, and I wrote about

'em, they came in from, from Prague.

I: 00:42:00So, this is how you learned what had happened to your mother. Tell about the

slave labor that you then did and--

A: Well, every--

I: How you managed.

A: We again, we got up in the morning and lined up the same way, took the

inventory, lined the commanders up, and marched us out the camp, under guards,

and we performed the labor when we go to the part where we were working until at

night, you didn't stop.

I: And you were building barracks.

A: I was actually working, I didn't, I wasn't with my brothers.

I: Right.

A: I was by myself, I didn't even know where my brothers were. I didn't, at that

time you didn't communicate, you didn't, you didn't know, nobody knew by our

name. I didn't even know their numbers. 00:43:00The only one, later on, is my, the

brother who is still alive, I used to see him. And, roughly about 6 o'clock in

the evening, they lined us up and marched us back into the camp, and again you

assembled five deep and took inventory. Sometime it was an error, or sometime

somebody fell asleep somewhere, a prisoner, or maybe some tried to escape, and

if that happened, you stood there till about midnight. After that they would

break us up, then you went over there and you got a bowl of soup, and a quarter

of a loaf of bread. The loaf of bread was about this size. I would say, 6 inches

by 00:44:002 inches wide, and about an inch deep. Cut in four. You got a forth of that

bread and that was your daily meal. You had one meal a day. I was talking, to my

cousin, I don't know where he got the statistics. There are statistics that says

that the meals were designed so you only, you could only survive 3 months, under

those circumstances. If you didn't have anywhere to steal anything, or procure

something, you could only survive 3 months. Now I don't know where the statistic

comes from.

I: Then you were replaced by, that was, probably. Your father, did you see him again?

A: I did see him, and I don't remember exactly 00:45:00what time it was, when it was,

but probably, it could be, the early part of 43. It was cold weather. I was told

my father was in a hold, in a hold barrack. There was one barrack, if you were

put in there, you did not leave no more. He was there. And I walked over there,

and I said goodbye to him, he had a fractured leg, and when you, incapacitated,

no medical help whatsoever. The only thing you did, could of, you could obtain

an aspirin, the famous Bayer, Bayer aspirin, you could obtain one of those, no

matter, I don't know I didn't even know where you could obtain it, I never got

one. But I'm always told there was an aspirin there somewhere. They were the

same people who 00:46:00supplied the gas to the gas chambers, I don't know whether y'all

are familiar with it.

I: The Bayer.

A: Bayer, yes.

I: Um, I've heard of this, yes. When, there were people missing at the, what you

call the inventory--

A: They would, they would keep you till midnight and then, they would, they

would still search, there guards at night search. See what had happened was, the

camp had electric fence around it. In the daytime you marched out beyond that

fence and you worked, where you worked there was no fences. So if somebody could

escape or could find a bunker or something, place to hide, when they, at night

couldn't 00:47:00find them, and after about 2, 3 days they would stop looking. There was

one guy in particular I know escaped, and I ran into him in Prague, after the

war, it was quite a story. Uh, but he had contact from the outside. There was

some contact on the outside.

I: You wrote in your book about punishment exercises that you had to do when

someone escaped.

A: More prisoners died from physical beating than from bullets. A lot of people

died from bullets also. You also, did witness suicide.

I: Yes.

A: Um, I was talking to one of the schools, I don't know if y'all remember about 00:48:00it was a few years back. Maybe about 10, 15 years ago there was a, a suicide.

The kids, so many kids committed suicide, it was that kids talked about it, and

I was in Hampton and talked to one of, spent the whole day talking to different

classes, and some of the kids asked me about suicide. And I told 'em yes, there

was a lot of suicides. It was not the, it was not a cop-out, suicide. There was

no light in the end of the tunnel. They could not survive anymore. They

couldn't. So they, used to approach, the electric fence. Very few of 'em would

touch the fence, because you had a, like a neutral zone, roughly about 6 00:49:00 feet,

and they were watching you from the tower, and they would tell you to stop, and

if you didn't stop, you crossed the neutral zone, they would shoot you. Some,

didn't shoot right away, they approached and got electrocuted. But that happened

every single day. So the kids asked me what did I think of suicide I says,

"Suicide's nothing but a cop-out." It just didn't apply in my era, at that time.

The ones who commit suicide didn't have, could not survive anymore. Couldn't

take it anymore. I myself, I don't know when it happened, it happened the first

few months, first few weeks, I went in the bunker at night and, we worked, we

worked 10, 12 hour, 15 hours, then we got that meal, 00:50:00and I was so hungry and I

said to myself, just talking to myself, laying in the straw sack, if I could

obtain one loaf of bread, eat it, fall asleep, and not wake up. I only wish I

had. I never had it, again. That was one time.

I: I read that in your book too. Um, then, you kind of had a break. You um, were

able to find, some other kind of work. I think if you had continued--

A: I--what I, what happened after a few weeks I was working in that thing,it was

a, older man, non-Jewish guy, he says, he says Samuel, he says, "Would you like

to 00:51:00work with me?", he said, "I'm a fix you up, I think you gonna like it," he

said. Yeah, I will like to do. He said, "It's a good job." He didn't describe

anything. He picked me up and we worked in a food, the food warehouse. Did,

carpentry work. The shelves and all that, at night, he picked me up and went

over there.

I: This was additional work, in addition to what you were--

A: Yes. I liked the work, there was food there. And I got in the first night,

and I saw there was a kettle of potatoes, nobody was eat, eatin it--Boiled

potatoes. The next, I, the next day, that night, later night I send a signal to

my brother and my friends, I said, "Some of you come over there, be careful make

sure nobody sees you, and I'll bring that kettle out, of 00:52:00potatoes," and I did.

So uh, you, you had to obtain extra food somehow, somewhere. You could not

survive otherwise.

I: Well the impression I had from reading your book was that you, didn't think,

you would make it through this hell so you were gonna take some chances.

A: I--personally I--I'm not a pessimist. I'm neither an optimist. But I'm a

realist. I knew the fate of my family. I knew already I said goodbye to my

father, I knew three of my brothers were gone--I barely communicated with 'em.

Couldn't even see 'em. I knew the fate of my mother, my two sisters, the rest of

the families. Hundreds. Hundreds of members of the family. Was a strong family, 00:53:00the family was lived in that city, very, very strong. And--a lot of young, young

people, the kids in school. In the school I talked to the kids in the middle

school and high school. The middle school I restrained myself a little bit, I

try not to tell 'em some detail atrocities. High school level I pull, I pull all

the stops out. And I developed a feeling of not being afraid anymore.

I: Right.

A: I had nothing to lose. The brother and myself were still here. And we gonna

be next, it's a matter of time. And the fact that I developed that feeling, I

made it, and a lot, a lot of people made it alongside of me.

I: That saved your life.

A: 00:54:00I touched a lot of lives.

I: Yes. You touched a lot of lives.

A: Yes.

I: With the risks that you took, you helped other people.

A: I--I um--I don't know whether I described it in the book, but I'm a describe

it here. We had, I--I didn't go into the detail, in the book, where they put me

in charge of the bread warehouse. And we had the bread lined up against a

wall--we had it so lined up you could easily read the volume of the bread what

we had.

I: You mean counted.

A: What we had is holes in the back, the breads were missing. We didn't, worry

about what the, what the consequences could be. We kept people alive. 00:55:00As many as

we could. And on the board, we had a board, and on the board we had the

inventory, we had so much inventory. And I signaled my brother and some of my

friends, so I say, "You go to barrack eight," it was a given day, and you pick

up four loaves of bread, and you guys share. In order for them to pick up four

loaves of bread, I had to send eight loaves back there, because the guy

collaborated with me, with my brother, he had to get his share.

I: I see.

A: There were the, that was, that was the system. Well that day, the guy who was

in charge of all the food and all the food warehouses, he was 00:56:00a tall, heavyset

guy, red-headed, smoked a cigar, always had a cigar in his mouth, a sadist.

I: Sadist.

A: He shoot you faster than--he'd never ask a question. He walked in in the, my

warehouse, I used to stay there and, we had people, prisoners working in the

warehouse. I used to tell them to figure how many loaves to put in each

barrack--Each, there were boxes,to carry the bread, was based in the morning you

got a list of the barracks, how many prisoners were in the barracks, and based

on this, a hundred people was twenty-five loaves of bread. But I signaled to my

friends and my brother, barrack eight will have eight loaves that they can get

four, but this sadist came in, and he told me for me to go discharge the 00:57:00 bread,

and he had the list in front of him. He would call out the numbers, and you

didn't ask him twice, you just listened to the number, you con-, you threw the

bread in the basket, you took two loaves at, one in each hand, and you threw 'em

in. And from the corner of my eye I kinda looked at him and I could see he was

tuned in, listening to the beats, make sure if I make a mistake he'd stop me,

probably shoot me.

I: He could hear the loaves dropping.

A: And he hear the loaves dropping that's how he counted the bread. Well there's

number four, number five, number six, and my wheels are spinning in my head,

number eight is coming, I'm supposed to put extra eight loaves of bread in

there. 00:58:00I made the decision I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna beat him to it. I'm gonna

outsmart him. It kept my adrenaline flowing, outsmarting them. It's the only

thing you could do. You could not defy 'em. When they physically beat you, you

couldn't even show this on your face.

I: The pain?

A: You had to hold a straight face all the time. So what I did, eight times I

took three loaves together, one in each hand and one in the middle, and I put it

in the basket and I looked in the corner of my eye, the four prisoners came,

picked up the basket, number eight barrack, carried it out, no problem at all.

But my feeling, myself, I shouldn't of 00:59:00have to do it that day, I could have done

it the next day. Mine life was on the line, but I tried to be smarter than they

are, and I was. I defied them. As smart they thought they gonna catch me make a mistake--

I: Yes.

A: He did not.

I: It sounded the same when you dropped three--

A: Yes.

I: As when you dropped--That's some story to be degraded to this point where you--

A: I--I--I--you know, this--

[tape change]

I:--when you lied about your age.

A: Ok.

I: Go ahead.

A: I worked in the, at night, in that warehouse, went back to the barracks.

Eventually they gave me a job, as a regular job in 01:00:00the warehouse. And I was

working over there. You, you cleaned the warehouse.

I: You mean rather than going out to build barracks--

A: No more.

I: You--

A: I was working in the warehouse.

I: Full time. Ok.

A: Full time. And I used to announce when, there were, there were certain

barracks, they were quarantine barracks, they would get food, the meal at noon

instead of at night. And I used to come announce for them to come pick up that

soup, the kettle of soup. And I used to run errands, and one of the errands I

was running, I, a young man from my hometown, he was standing there with an SS

guy holding him, and he's waving to me and I went over there I said, "What, 01:01:00what's your problem?" He said, "I'm working for you don't I?" I say, "Yes you're

working for me." And the SS guy he said, "Ok stop, stop roaming around, go to

work!" They were rounding up every single day the people who, they were hiding,

not going to work. And once they rounded up these people they put 'em in that

hold barrack, there was one barrack I described earlier. They did not, at night

they were taken away to the gas chamber. So I was just a split second.

I: You saved his life.

A: I saved his life. But, what happened was the same red-headed, the same guy

with the cigar, commander, walked in one day, and this is in the main camp, the

big camp, and he sees my, he sees my Star of David. You had the number, but you

also had the Star of David. 01:02:00The, the ordinary political prisoners would have a

triangle, a red triangle. The criminal would have a green triangle--And the

homosexual would have a purple triangle. But the Jewish prisoners were not

classified in any of these categories. They just had a number, and a Star of

David. He walks in, and I'm gonna say it in German again, 'cause it's I

distinctly hear it, can hear him say it. "Schmeiss de Jude raus!" Throw the Jew out.

I: When he was--

A: I should not be working in there. And then he leaves, and the man charge in

the warehouse came over to me, he says, "You know 01:03:00we like you a lot, you really

do a good job. I'm not gonna throw you out, I'm gonna keep you here under one

condition. When you get a clue that he's coming in, hide between the columns."

They had some columns. "Hide as much as you can." For some reason or another he

gradually got used to me.

I: What, the redhead? Or--

A: That red-headed Gestapo.

I: He, he spotted you anyway.

A: Well yeah but he didn't throw me out no more. I was performing the job,

minding my own business and, a truck pulls up, and backs up to the warehouse,

and unloads flour. Sacks of flour. I looked in the book--it was 01:04:00a hundred

kilogram of flour. It was roughly two hundred and forty pound. He says, "Go out

and get up the flour." Let me see, no it's "Go out and unload the flour." I put

one sack of flour on me my knees were buckling but I, determined to carry it in,

I did. And I took another one, and I was barely making it. I weighed a hundred

and ten pound. And I took it in the warehouse, then he called me in. He stopped

me from going anymore. I'm glad he did. He says, "How old are you?" I say, "I'm

twenty-seven." This is in German. "Wie ault wist zu?"

I: Actually..

A: He says uh--

I: You lied about your age.

A: 01:05:00I was eighteen. I've tell him eighteen I'd never had a chance. He says, "What

you doing here, there gonna be a quarantine camp. Prisoners come there, they

quarantine them. So you gonna be runnin the bread warehouse." That was the beginning.

I: That was how you got to the other--

A: The other warehouse.

I: The other warehouse. And this was the same sadistic redhead?

A: Same sadistic guy. But he came one day with white gloves. And he was a big

guy, tall guy and he take the white gloves in the rafters and get a little dust.

He says, "You su-, you report into the main camp." 01:06:00I don't know if it was the

same day or the following day, report over there. And he was there waiting for

me and I did the exercise.

I: What exercise?

A: When you, you fell out, they put cold water on you and exercise again. But

the, he was sitting in the office, and the, the SS man in charge of the kitchen,

he used to tramp his feet, make believe that it's me running, doing things,

cover for me. He was also milder type of nature.

I: So, for punishment for finding this dust--

A: A little dust was uh--

I: You had to do what? What was--

A: As long I don't know for about an hour or whatever--

I: What were you doing? What exercise?

A: Anything they 01:07:00wanted you to do.

I: Moving.

A: Yeah anything. Rolling, moving, whatever.

I: And so a friend of yours made the sounds--

A: He made me stop and he'd stamped his foo-, feet, making believe that I'm running.

I: Who was Malinka? Someone that you--

A: Somebody that I met in the, as a prisoner.

I: Yes. And, he was uh, he was, his work was repairing roofs?

A: He was what?

I: Repairing roofs. He and your brother were working together.

A: Taking care of roo- fixing the roofs. Yes.

I: Right. Uh--

A: They were well known they were there. 'Cause they knew their way around plus

they knew me.

I: Uh-huh.

A: So in camp them knew 'em, they very well know of him.

I: Yes. If I'm not mistaken, Sam 01:08:00Itzkowitz talks about Malinka too.

A: Was he?

I: I think so.

A: 'Cause he knows, he knows my cousin well.

I: And uh, they smuggled food at times through the roof.

A: He was quite a, quite a wheeler-dealer in the camp uh, he was, he was a macho

guy and uh, um--

I: A role model.

A: Well he was not a role model but he was, he, he flexed his muscles.

I: For survival--

A: In the camp. And uh, people backed up from him.

I: So, then you write in one chapter how you visited the women's camp, which was absolutely

A: We--

I: Forbidden.

A: They took us, this is an earlier, prior, an earlier time. They took several

of us in there to do some kind of work to perform. I, I can never 01:09:00forget, the

condition, they had the same condition we had. The floors, lime floors, they,

they have no flooring in the barrack. Just underground.

I: Just the dirt.

A: They wore the same uniform, the hair cut short, performed as much work as the

men did, whatever they could except mechanically, and I distinctly remember, as

hungry as we were, the feeling that we had, where we, nothing was the likes

seeing the condition of the women that we saw them. That was absolutely devastating.

I: You describe, um, 01:10:00was there resistance in the camp, ever? And--

A: There was no resistance, there was contact with the outside, there was an

underground contact, and I had one man, used to fill me in occasionally. He'd

ask me to come and walk behind him you know, and he would tell me. When he came

in 1944, he said there's, there's possible plans the Russians might drop some

military people. If they do that, we gonna get a word, in back of my camp, used

to be a building where the SS shift, all the SS was there. And during the shift

change, they change in that building. 01:11:00Everything was in that building. We never

were inside of it, I never seen it. But it was directly behind our camp. A few

days later he saw me again he said, "This is, if this happens, I'll let you

know. Nobody- you don't talk to nobody, you don't tell nobody, you, the plans

will be, you'll get a signal, you open the door to the barracks, and notify all

the prisoners, and yell over on this station and disarm that group. Cut the

wires, select the wires and, and he walked away, didn't tell me any more. Then

he came back again, few days later and he tell me that plan has been scratched. 01:12:00They're not gonna do that, there were too many sick people, too many incapable

people, that couldn't, not, they were still alive, they were still prisoners,

but they were, didn't have the strength to--

I: To participate.

A: To participate. And there would be too many casualties. And that was the last

time I ever saw him again.

I: This man.

A: Yes there was, there were organized, yes. Had contact with the outside.

I: You were wearing the same clothes all this time?

A: No, I, I, same uniform yes. Yes, but I, later on you know I'll get a pair of

boots made--

I: Tell us about that.

A: You know leather boots and they were, they were mechanics, the finest

mechanics, they didn't have the tools, but they would work with their hands,

produce product, they made Jews--

I: For the Germans.

A: 01:13:00For the Germans and, made me a pair of boots, and I describe in the book what

that, this is quite a story. It's so bizarre. You didn't communicate with these

people. But he walked in one day, and delivered the bread, an SS guy, and he

looks on my boots, leather boots--He says, I, I can still speak the German

words, "Commandas mar hein?" Can we make this? I sa-, you always, we always

stood at attention when they talk to you. You took your cap off and you always

stood, and no matter, rank didn't matter, any SS, you stood attention talk to

you. I said, to one of the guys working the warehouse, go get the shoemaker.

Within minute the guy came, 01:14:00he measured 'em up, he says, "Next time you come,

you're gonna have a pair of boots." Next time he came and he gave him the boots,

he's never been so happy. Didn't say anything, didn't say thank you, you didn't

communicate with them, they, didn't, they didn't talk. You, the, actions spoke

for itself. No words. The next time he come the truck comes, we count the bread,

off the truck there's fifty extra loaves of bread on the truck. He helped us

replenish the inventory that we stole. He said, then he says, "Can he make my

uniform, can he make my uniform?" I said "We don't have the material. Bring old

German uniforms and he will cut up and make you uniform." Made him a uniform.

The truck came, there was 01:15:00fifty loaves of bread. You didn't even say thank you

to him. Nothing. Action--

I: It was an understanding.

A: Action took care of itself.

I: And tell how, how did you obtain your boots, the boots that the German

officer noticed--

A: Well, how did I obtain them?

I: Yes.

A:The guy made them for me you know I helped him out.

I: Because you helped him out.

A: Oh yeah, sure.

I: And that was when you were able to shed those--

A: I did not--

I: The other shoes.

A: I did not sell. I--

I: No. I didn't say sell. You could get rid of the shoes that hurt your feet.

A: Yeah, well, I was, gradually I got a little better shoes, you know you--you

were well respected as a, as a veteran in the camp. When the people in the camp

looked at your number, when you had an older number, you had a lot of, they had 01:16:00a lot of respect for you.

I: A lower number.

A: A lower number, yes. See the numbers stopped and then they used to have A and B--

I: Oh. Really?

A: Yeah.

I: Explain that. I didn't realize that.

A: I don't know how far the numbers went but they had a hundred and some

thousand, and then they stopped, and then they tattooed 'em in here, small

numbers but they had a A and a B in front of it.

I: I see. So they went back to small numbers but they--

A: Yes. Yes.

I: A new system.

A: These people came later.

I: Yes. Um, toward the end, you, um,you actually, you knew the end was near.

A: I did what?

I: You escaped? What happened when--

A: Uh, I did not escape. 01:17:00What happened was they were walk--this was January, 1945.

I: Ok.

A: And we kn-, we sensed that, that the Russians approach and they're very

close, the Russian army. And what they did is march out, all day long, they

close my camp down and we, were moved into the main camp.

I: Main camp what? Also Birkenau?

A: Yeah also, all in Birkenau. That's quite a few camps towards the end.

I: Yeah.

A: And, I was working in the warehouse, and we were handing out bread to the

prisoners that were walking out. They were lining up and then walking out of the

camp. Under SS guards, with dogs, with guns. And, I had that guy who threatened

me, who told me he's gonna get me. Now, 01:18:00one thing they did is, deliver the

promise. My friends were all gone. We had certain group of friends, he would not

mess with me as long the friends were around. But they were not around to defend

me. He wouldn't have any obstacles. And my, I was handing out the bread and it

was start getting like darker, this is January. And, I say I've got to make a

decision here, I cannot stay much longer in this camp. The guy will fulfill his

promise. He'll kill me.

I: I must say I don't remember--

A: I grabbed--

I: Why was he after you?

A: Because I stole, I got out of the warehouse, a lo-, a case of margarine. And

gave it to the prisoners. And tell 'em to divide 01:19:00 it.

I: Ok.

A: And he, he came to me and said, "Where's my share?" I say, he said, "I saw

what you did," I say, "You didn't see nothin."

I: He was also a prisoner.

A: He was a German but a prisoner.

I: A German prisoner.

A: A prisoner. I say, "You didn't see nothin." He said, "Don't I get my share?"

I'm not gonna repeat the words I told him, no he--And I was not afraid of him.

You st- I stood my ground. But time was running out. My friends were not around

anymore. So I had to make a quick decision. If I stayed there, he's not gonna

have any obstacle getting to me. That's one thing they delivered a promise. I

grabbed one of the breads, like I handed them out, the rest of the prisoners,

and pushed a guy over and I lined up and marched out with them.

I: With the group that was leaving.

A: Yes. They didn't 01:20:00take names and numbers, they didn't, they just marched

prisoners out. They didn't have any transportation. Didn't have no trains, no--

I: They were evacuating the camp?

A: They were evac-, not all of it, but most of it.

I: Ok.

A: As much as they could.

I: Ok. So then you found yourself on the road.

A: Right.

I: Walking.

A: And that's when uh, we marched forty-five mile, roughly about forty-five

miles at night, in snow, and uh, they put us on a train, and they put us in Gross-Rosen.

I: Another camp, Gross-Rosen.

A: Gross- Rosen. We were only there, for like a week.

A: Then they took us from Gross-Rosen and they put us on another train, that I

described to you earlier, with no water, no food, four days, four nights, on the

way to Dachau.

I: Describe that, that last leg of the trip on the way to Dachau in the, 01:21:00it was

a cattle car right?

A: (nods head yes)

I: Would you describe--

A: And the--there was--the punishment of no food is--doesn't even come near of

the punishment of no water. And we did not get anything, absolutely nothing. And

some of the, some of the people in that train, they drank the urine. Some fell

out, never came through. It was just horrible scene. I--if I wasn't as young as

I was, I don't know why, whether I would have survived.

I: The doors were locked, you couldn't get out.

A: Nothing.

I: 01:22:00The train was moving--

A: If the train stopped, doesn't make any difference. You were inside the train.

I: About how many would you say were--

A: Uh, each carload had about eighty, ninety, there was standing room only most of--

I: And when the train doors opened, where were you?

A: We were in Dachau. We arrived in Dachau.

I: Which was--

A: That was the latter part of January.

I: They were moving you west.

A: I don't know where.

I: Dachau was in Germany, and you were coming from Poland.

A: Dachau was outside Munich, roughly about thirty miles outside of Munich.

I: This was ahead of the Russians or you don't know, what was, ok--

A: (shakes head no). You, your mentality was so, you didn't occupy it, you

didn't know east, west, you only do day from night. 01:23:00You--you sense the timing

cause, you train yourself, you, you could sense it was roughly five, six o'clock

in the afternoon, the sun down and stuff like that but you never did see a

clock, never did see a, you didn't occupy yourself with anything and some of

the, some of the questions, I recently spoke to Temple Sinai in Newport

News--They had a breakfast meeting, it's the first group I've ever spoken, asked

me to speak.

I: Group?

A: First Jewish group.

I: Jewish group. Really?

A: In fifty-six years. And they asked me, "How was your relation with God?" I

said, "God, was not in the vocabulary. 01:24:00You didn't say nothin bad about God, you

didn't say nothin good about God, you didn't think about God, God was not in

existence. Nothing bad. Nothing good. The word God was not in existence in the

years I was incarcerated." Only--

I: After--

A: Sporadic you saw one or two. There was one distant cousin of mine, he had a

little bible, like this, and there were always the bible in his hand. I don't

know how he managed to hide it, because you couldn't hide anything, you have no

pockets or nothing. And otherwise, thousands--you never heard the word God used

in any, in any form, in any shape.

I: So when you arrived in Dachau, were there again barracks? 01:25:00What happened to

you then?

A: Barrack--we were in Dachau proper, for about a week or two, I don't remember

exactly timing, and then we were put in you called a Volkslager, there was

bunkers in the ground.

I: Holes in the ground?

A: Holes in the ground in roughly, the ground was so cut out there was a,

a--about eighteen, twenty inches cut out, that you got in, and then there was a

higher ground the straw sack was laying on till you slept on, on both sides.

Probably a few prisoners could share that.

I: So you were sleeping--

A: Underground.

I: You were sleeping like in a grave? In the ground?

A: Not, not,it was, it 01:26:00no--you sleep on the, there was--

I: Beside--

A: Dug out a walk, but they, where the straw sack was laying was a higher ground

on both sides.

I: I see. And you shared that with someone.

A: Yeah. Yeah.

I: So they had no more barracks.

A: Nothing. They had some barracks somewhere but we didn't, they didn't have

enough room for all of us.

I: So this, you stayed there and then--

A: And--

I: There was a Catholic convent nearby.

A: Oh that, that--

I: Near this?

A: You know I tell the stories and it's, it's really funny now talk about it. We

worked, we marched out of Dachau, into the city of Dachau, and to the convent.

I: Why did you do that? Why were you marched there?

A: Why, we went there because they were shipping in heavy equipment from the east--

I: So--

A: 01:27:00Where the Russians were coming in.

I: You were weighing how much then? You were, probably, (laughs), and you were

still slave labor.

A: I was, it was still slave labor, but I was, I was rather, I was healthy, I never--

I: Because you managed the food--

A: I never had a cold, I never had the flu. You know I, I talk to some people

and I'm amazed that scientists have never looked into our era, how come we never

took sick. The ones who didn't. We got acclimated to that type of environment.

We walked in rain, walked in snow, when we got wet--

I: You slept--

A: When we--you slept with the wet clothes hoping you, it would get a little

drier when, during the night. 'Cause you couldn't take it off and put it on wet

clothes. And you wouldn't take the clothes off anyhow.

I: 01:28:00So in Dachau, in sleeping on the ground--

A: It didn't make any difference.

I: You were still slave labor--

A: Yes.

I: And what was it you were to do near the convent? I'm sorry.

A: We're unloading the equipment.

I: Ok.

A: That's when we found the apples.

I: What did you find? I know I read it in the book.

A: It's, it's, it's facetious, it's funny now, but it's not funny at all. This,

I worked for this friend of mine, I was then already twenty years old, he was

then uh probably around eighteen, but he was constant-, Dachau, we had one

problem: starving. No, no, nowhere to steal any food, nowhere to organize, food

warehouses gone.

I: Yeah. Were you given a bowl of soup there too?

A: Same--

I: Same rations.

A: Same, same, same rations.

I: But nothing supplementing it.

A: So he 01:29:00came running to me, he says then, he says, "Follow me, we're gonna go

alongside the building. When we go to the building look at the bottom windows."

And I say, "Ok." So we finish marching, I say, "Yes, I saw the apples." He says,

"That's exactly what I'm talking about. How do we go in there?" Now you read the

thing, what we did.

I: Tell us what you did.

A: We uh, I says, "We're gonna find a way," I says. We got a hold of two

toolboxes, I said, "we're gonna wear the toolboxes, on the shoulder," I said.

The SS stays at the convent entrance, the con-, the entrance was in a hole, not

to the main buildings. Huge convent. He said, "We walk in there, if he stops us

tell him we gotta fix 01:30:00something on the bottom, there's something broken. If he

lets us go it's ok, if he don't, he don't, we got nothing to lose." I say, "If

he don't stop us, we're in heaven." Sure enough he didn't stop us because we had

the toolboxes. We go down, downstairs to the basement, we took the latch out,

loaded up the apples, toolboxes, and we were gone. We did that for several days,

all of a sudden, they li-, one day they lined up all the prisoners, like two,

three hours earlier. Well we, we had a very strong sense of communication. The

words got to us right away. Fortunately for us we were on the end, they were

searching from the beginning. Searching everybody, looking for the apples.

I: Oh, the apple theft had been 01:31:00 reported.

A: The nuns reported the apples missing.

I: I see.

A: And, we still had the apples, we gave everybody to eat, I say, "You gotta eat

everything. Core, everything, no sign, no nothing." They accommodated. Everybody

was helpful. No problem.

I: So you--

A: So I, this is a funny story. I went with my son, uh, this is about nine, ten

years ago we went back there. Now he knows the story. And I said, "You know what

we need to do? We need to go find a store that sells some beautiful apple, buy

several cases those apples, and take 'em into the convent." But I never, we

never did that.

I: You didn't do that. Well, then came the 01:32:00liberation and, when did that, when

did that happen?

A: That happened--

I: Finally.

A: On the last day of April.

I: On the last day of April.

A: The last day of April we were on a train. They put us on the train in the

beginning of April with several hundred prisoners on the train, on the train--

I: Yes.

A: No, not telling us where we going, what we doing. And we were--train would

move some day, some day it didn't move, some day it'd go backwards, some day

it'd go forwards. This thing was, the train was stopped. While we were, are on

the trains, the American planes would attack the train. Shot at, shoot the

train. Some prisoners got killed. We, we took our clothes off and put 'em on top

of the roof of the train--

I: So the airplanes--

A: Let 'em know maybe if they, they wanna 01:33:00monitor what it is, didn't do no good.

And one, one morning, that was the, April 30th, we saw a unit approaching from

the field. Didn't have the metallic gray. Green uniform, round helmet, the

Americans are here.

I: So you were being taken somewhere, you never learned where to. Where the

train was going. You never--

A: We didn't know anything. That was, that was in the city named Seeshaupt.

It's, it's, it's about the foot of the Alps. The lower part of the Alps.

I: Right. So, off that train you were liberated.

A: Yes.

I: What did you do?

A: Well, first, first, there was a young Lieutenant in a jeep with an

interpreter and he uh, he took us all off the train and walked us in the city

and he find a 01:34:00building, I think was a bank building or something. Huge, empty

building he put us all in there. And then he took me on the jeep and he went on

a farm and he says, "We're going kill a steer, and process it and feed you

guys." And the young lieutenant looked at a prize steer, he said, "That's, that

looks good enough." He shot 'em, processed 'em and fed them, and we spend the

night in, in the basement in the building. The next morning, him and the

interpreter and the chauffer came back to the building and, the chauffer came

in, he said, "lieutenant wants to see you." He spoke German. I says, so I walked

out, he says, "Come on with us. We're going back to the train, I wanna see the

train." 01:35:00And he looked at the car, there was a freight train. He looked at the

cars, there were a lot of dead prisoners. He, he didn't say a word, all of a

sudden he moves to hand me a carbine, and he says, "You go into these buildings

and you kill all of 'em or as many as you want to. Go ahead."

I: Of the civilians?

A: Yes.

I: Live there.

A: That was the lieu-, lieutenant.

A: And I, (puts hands up) I distinctly remember I said, "I've never killed

anybody, I'm not killing anybody."

I: But what he saw made him--

A: The next day they came with trucks, with army trucks and there, picked us up

and they moved, moved us in an area outside of Munich.

I: And then they wanted to put you into a DP camp?

A: 01:36:00They wanna put us in a d-, I said, "No, no way. Put us back in Dachau, or

find us a place to live." I--I, I, I stood my ground. I was the spokesman.

I: You were never in a displaced persons camp.

A: No way.

I: And then, how did you begin to live again? What happened?

A: Well, life was not, you were not really free, as you would describe the

interpretation of being free. Uh, I didn't know the fate of my brother, I didn't

know the fate of my cousin. I knew the rest of the family. Nowhere to go. You're

in the land of the captors. You--it was not a happy occasion, you were not free.

We're not, 01:37:00nobody cared. There were no organizations, nobody was there to help,

nobody was there to guide you. You were on your own. All the time. And any, in

the four years that I lived in Munich, I never did see, anybody from the Red

Cross, or any Jewish organization whatsoever, come and talk to any of us or nothing.

I: You were on your own.

A: On our own.

I: Because you chose to be. You chose not to go to a displaced persons camp.

A: Of course not. I've had enough.

I: Right.

A: But they, they, I didn't think they were there either. Nobody came there.

There was nobody there. Nobody, I don't think, I don't think anybody cared. 01:38:00Unfortunately, I didn't look for any help.

I: Right.

A: I'm not the type, I don't look for no handout, I don't look for no help. If I

need help I'm, I know how, what to do.

I: So you began to wheel--

A: You know what I did.

I: Deal and make money--

A: Absolutely.

I: And you lived--

A: I was wheeling and dealing.

I: Yeah.

A: Didn't--I'm gonna tell you one thing. Neither any of my friends or our

contemporary, we never did anything wrong, we never robbed, we never stole, we

never beat anybody, we never did anything wrong. We had a right to do it. We

never did, we never retaliated in any 01:39:00shape or form.

I: You just--

A: But it--and look on the other side--I lived there for four years, ate with

'em, slept with 'em, drank with 'em, never got an apology from anybody. Not

never did one time, somebody come over to me say, "Samuel, I'm sorry what

happened. We shouldn't have done that." The only thing you heard the people tell

you, they were not member of the Nazi party. That I believed them. But they

loved Hitler. They loved what Hitler did for them. They were not members of the

Nazi party but they were followers of Hit-, they liked what they did. He took

care of them.

I: Their country was destroyed.

A: He robbed, he robbed all of Europe. Arts, agriculture, 01:40:00everything that could

possibly be. They still haven't recovered, some of these nations still haven't

recovered from what Hitler has done to them. They never held Germany responsible

for that.

I: That's true.

A: I mean, they never made any restitution. Maybe my father's business wasn't

worth that much but my uncle's when they took it away. They never made any

restitution they never questioned you. The only restitution they made is,

somebody had, the family had, money in the Swiss banks, or insurance or whatever

it was. I even read an article in the Jerusalem Post, that some of the surviving

parents had money in the Israeli banks and they didn't 01:41:00acknowledge it.

I: Really.

A: Did you read it?

I: No. No I did not see that. So then you lived in Munich and made a living--

A: For four years.

I: For four years, and then you came, you were able to come--

A: I, didn't have any kin, I had kin's here, didn't know anything about 'em, but

I uh, filled out some papers and--

I: And they--

A: April of forty-nine I came here. Came to Newport News.

I: Directly to Newport News?

A: Directly, actually to Boston, I arrived in Boston. I, in that group of stuff

that I brought, I think there is a, a friend of mine researched and he got a

hold of the picture of the ship that brought me over here.

I: Oh really?

A: Yes.

I: What was the name of the ship?

A: I don't even remember, it's in the book.

I: It's in the book, yes. We will have to read the book 01:42:00to find out how you came

to America. Now, you arrived in Newport News, and what brought you to Newport News?

A: What was the address?

I: No, no. What brought you, why to Newport News?

A: That's where they assigned me.

I: They assigned you.

A: Yes.

I: And, you moved here, and then you--

A: I worked, I worked construction.

I: Construction?

A: Worked different jobs--Then I was in the business.

I: What business?

A: Catering and uh, and uh, restaurant, the deli business.

I: That was your--

A: Forty-three years.

I: Really. What was the name of the--

A: Althaus.

I: Althaus. Very good. Have you any contact now with, tell, tell us about your

family, first.

A: Well, only thing I have is my brother.

I: Yes.

A: And uh, wife, we have three children. My son us uh, 01:43:00he's number two man in

New York law school, in New York. One daughter lives in Richmond you know Cheryl.

I: Yes.

A: One lives in Orlando, Florida.

I: And so Cheryl, her name, please tell us. Your daughter in Richmond is Cheryl Lipke.

A: Yes.

I: And your daughter in Florida, what is her name?

A: Her name is Tannenhouse.

I: Her last name.

A: Carol.

I: Carol Tannenhouse. And you have a wife?

A: Yes.

I: Yes.

A: I told you that this morning.

I: That was before we filmed. What is her name?

A: Marian. M-a-r-i-a-n.

I: Have you any contact with survivors now?

A: I have some. Some, are not around with us anymore.

I: Right.

A: 01:44:00And, within a few short years they're going be very little or any survivors.

I: When did you first begin to talk about your experiences?

A: I first, was called in by a, a church group, and asked me would I come and

talk to the people on a Sunday. And I did. Well-known church in Newport News.

And the minister come to me he says, "Sam you draw more people than I do." Uh,

that was the, that was about, I would say, thirty-five years ago.

I: Thirty-five years ago?

A: Yes.

I: That's early.

A: And 01:45:00then, I uh, then schools start calling me. They wanna know would I come

and talk to the kids. And, some schools I spend the whole day.

I: Really.

A: Uh--

I: You've done a lot of this.

A: A lot of that. I, I don't spend anymore a whole day. But tomorrow, I'm going

to Greenville North, North Carolina. It's a parent academy, and I'm gonna be

speaking Tuesday morning from, I'm gonna spend the night, Tuesday morning from

nine to ten, to uh, seven graders. From 10:30 to 11:30, I'll be talking to eight

graders, and then we'll have lunch and come back.

I: So you usually speak for about one hour?

A: Well, that's the program usually, usually, usually they assign about 01:46:00an hour,

fifty minutes. Usually I speak and in most cases, most of the schools have

learned, a lot of them have learned I'm glad they did, because my my hearing is

a little impaired, I can't hear 'em, and they don't speak as clear--From the

audience. They write the questions down. And the parent academy will write the

questions down and I will read 'em and answer 'em.

I: What do you tell children, that this happened. How do you try to explain?

A: Same way as I talk to ya.

I: Or no, how do you explain that this, is possible. That man can do this.

A: Well it's still happening. Look what's happening today. Look what's happening

in Africa.

I: Yeah.

A: We totally ignore. The world has, 01:47:00they have so many different policies. We

have a United Nations; I better not talk about that. That's not why I'm here.

Uh--the atrocities, the killing, the starvation. Africa is a, is a rich

continent. But--it's going on. Not in the same fashion, but I'll tell ya this.

In many schools that I spoke to, and they ask me, "Can that thing happen in the

same fashion?" I say, "Not in the same fashion." I have since changed my mind.

I: You mean in America?

A: It can happen. Yes. It can happen the same fashion. Look what happened

nine-eleven. I'm gonna tell ya a story, about a year ago, or two years ago. That

was fresh of 01:48:00the nine-eleven incident. I was in Christopher Newport University

talking to a rotary group, meets there for breakfast. And they asked me, talk to

me, ask 'em different question, I answered it. And one of the questions, young

lady asked, she say, "Sam, how did nine-eleven affect you. Because it bound to

affect you different than anybody else" I say, "Yes it did." I say, "I'm not

ashamed to stay here, before you group," it was a large group, seventy, eighty,

I said, "During the time of incarceration, I never shed a tear." This is true. I

never remember shedding a tear. We didn't have tears to shed. I said, 01:49:00"Nine-eleven, I sobbed for two weeks. I couldn't stop. Because it happened,

right before my eyes, all over again. It's a Holocaust in its own." That's what

I answered her.

I: That we are vulnerable, too, and man is--

A: I can't say anymore. I'm not gonna get in--

I: No.

A: This is not for me to talk politics, or nothing else.

I: What one lesson do you think we can learn by remembering the Holocaust?

A: Evil must be confronted. It cannot be ignored. It must be isolated, it must

be taken care of.

I: Simon Wiesenthal--

A: You cut a 01:50:00cancer out, you cut the evil out. Unfortunately I don't have the

know how, how. But if we don't, that evil grows bigger all the time.

I: And you saw that happen.

A: Of course I did.

I: Do you have any last memory, or, that you would like to share?

A: Uh, the memories always on my mind is uh, my mother and my two sisters, my

two sisters. I think about them a lot. I also think about my father, what he

said to me. He said to me, and this is exact words, he says, "You're so young."

I was eighteen then. He said, "Do anything you can to make it." He said, "Don't

worry about me. I lived my life." I couldn't say anything anymore. 01:51:00It's, I look

back at life, I look at back in history. Sometime, I wish they would have

eliminated everybody at one time. Everybody, including myself. Because, while

I've lived a normal life, I lived a successful life, I'm not talking about

tangible success but I've lived a very successful life in Newport News. While

I'm well-known, to the media, to everybody else, I've always lived with a band

aid on my life. History always comes back at you. You dream, that--

I: You still have nightmares?

A: Sometime it's so severe, 01:52:00punishment, I was, I had one dream and that hasn't

been too long ago. The dreams have subsided, the, the um, and I was running away

climbing a fence and SS was chasing me, shooting me, and I felt the bullet

penetrate in my back, and fell off the fence, and I fell off the fence, I woke

up. I didn't know where I was. I had, I reached and turned the light on in my

bedroom, 'cause I didn't know where I was. That's--

I: It doesn't leave you.

A: And we had a lot of that.

I: Yeah. Show us your book--

A: Hmm?

I: We will put your book here. And this book will now be for sale here in the

museum shop. Um--

A: I'll hold it.

I: Tell us how the book was, 01:53:00was written. Your friend.

A: How what?

I: You had a friend who--

A: Yes.

I: Knew your story--

A: He's a retired lieutenant colonel from the army. He's a catholic.

I: Yes.

A: A dear friend, a great guy.

I: Yes, and a very good writer.

A: Well, he, I, first of all the book would have been this thick but, I didn't

go through and drama, dramatize anything. I didn't make, scenes, of some of the

things, uh, I just put factual thing in there. The things that I've lived,

witnessed, felt.

I: And the people who have read your book, you brought it, a whole uh, notebook

full of letters, and comments 01:54:00on, from people out, who have read the book. And

this is one I just, it fell--

A: This--

I: It fell out.

A: This school, I'm gonna be here probably this month or next month I'm gonna

speak there again.

I: You'll speak there again.

A: Yes.

I: Um--ok. Uh, this is from Our Lady of--

A: Mount Carmel. Catholic Church.

I: Catholic School.

A: Yes.

I: Do you want to read it? I'm going to have trouble reading it. This is just

one of many letters and citations.

A: Mr. Althaus, thank you for coming and speaking to my seventh grade class.

Your presentation made a lasting impression on them, some of my students

commented that they didn't realize how lucky they are and they appreciate 01:55:00 their

life more. They also commented that they were amazed at your strength. Thank you

again. May you have a blessed Passover, Sincerely. That was before P-, close to Passover.

I: Yes.

A: That was last year I believe.

I: 2003. Well that was just one of the letters, and then you brought uh, you

want to ex-, no we have no, this, right? You want to explain this? Mr. Althaus

it's one of many citations and honors. This was a flag that was flown over,

explain it.

A: I'm gonna get my glasses.

I: Of you don't have your glasses.

A: I certify--

I: This certifies the accompanying flag was flown on Operation Noble Eagle

Mission in defense of 01:56:00the National Capital Region on March 27th, 2003 by

Lieutenant Colonel Michael Skeeter Rothstein. And then it names his uh, unit.

And there are other, uh, and many others, citations and thank you for sharing

with us.

A: You're quite welcome.